Breaking the (Young) Collector Code: In Conversation with Hamish Greening
From fun events to understanding motivation, Hamish opens the door to a new demographic.
How do you create a new generation of life-long wine collectors and enthusiasts? Someone who may have cracked the code is Hamish Greening. The son of Nigel Greening, founder of Felton Road Wines in New Zealand, Hamish began his career working in restaurants and pouring wine, before going on to read Philosophy, Politics & Economics at Reading University and helping to run the university bars group there. He joined the London based wine merchant Chelsea Vintners in 2022, where 60% of his consumer base is under 40, with an average bottle spend of £400 in bond.
Areni Global:
Tell us a bit about your role at Chelsea Vintners.
Hamish Greening:
I look after a small group of our clients and I curate their collections from start to finish. I help them decide what to buy, what to sell, what to drink now, what to store for later and help them think about dinners and visits. It’s quite an all-encompassing job that probably is halfway between your run-of-the-mill salesperson at any wine company, but edging closer to a kind of executive assistant to some of the biggest collectors in the world.
The role of a fine wine merchant in the UK is unique. There haven’t been as many equivalents in other countries. And I think probably the key reason for that is the bonded system. The bonded system is essentially a series of warehouses that are HMRC-governed and allow you to trade many different items including alcohol without paying VAT and duty on them. Now, ultimately, when the wine is taken out and consumed, duty and VAT must be paid, but this allows for people to store wine for an extended period of time without paying that, and indeed trade it. And it’s that system that is the lifeblood of allowing fine wine merchants to do what they do.
Could you tell us about the customers of Chelsea Vintners?
I think we have a fantastic reputation for being quite diverse and quite young, but there are some fundamental laws of the economy that mean wealth is distributed in certain places. And so to pretend that the vast majority of our clients were under the age of 30 or were women, would just be fundamentally untrue. So I’m not going to make any claims about us specifically having more younger clients or more diverse clients or more women or anything than any other company.
What I can tell you is that by turnover, less than 40% of our clients come from the United Kingdom, or at least are based there. So the rest of that picture is pretty diverse internationally. Taiwan, the USA, Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, Germany, Switzerland, all make up good chunks of where our spend is.
By turnover, less than 40% of our clients are based in the United Kingdom […] Taiwan, the USA, Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, Germany, Switzerland, all make up good chunks of where our spend is.
Hamish Greening
When they’re in the UK, are they mostly based in London?
Increasingly we’re seeing delivery addresses that are outside of London, whether that be in the Cotswolds, whether it be up closer to Manchester. I think the Chester area is phenomenally wealthy and a lot of people choose to have homes there; Jersey, parts of rural Scotland and Devon. But I still think the vast majority of our clients would probably be taking delivery to a London address.
We are just under 10% women by spend. We’ve noticed that we have a significantly higher proportion of women coming to our events than most events that I see in the wine world. We do have a few very high-spending women. I think women do need a little bit more of a helping hand sometimes or just a slightly friendlier environment to get them started and to get them comfortable with the collecting world as they’re less likely to be inducted into it by a previous generation of female collectors.
What percentage of your own clients are under 40?
I would say 60%.
I’m 25 years old. When I first joined the company, something I was keen to do was build my own book. So at the beginning of the role I spent a lot of time trying to make friends in the London wine scene and quite naturally I think a lot of them were my age. And they’ve gone on to introduce me to more people.
It has been proven many times, for better or for worse, that people give their trust more easily to people that look like them. How do you segement your clientele?
Everyone at Chelsea Vintners looks after somewhere between 50 and 100 people and we don’t like that number to go over a hundred. I think what people are paying for is attention to details: they want you to know that it’s their sister’s birthday coming up, even if they just mentioned it once. And if you’re ahead of the curve and have something from her birth vintage, I think that’s really cool.
I’ve learned that trying to make any sort of assumption about what they’re going to buy aside from their preferences is really dangerous: thinking that they’ll only buy Bordeaux because they’re old or thinking that they’ll be into natural wine because they’re young or thinking that you should send them rosé Champagne because they’re a woman…you are not going to get far if this is the way you are trying to sell wine.
Thinking that they’ll only buy Bordeaux because they’re old or that they’ll be into natural wine because they’re young or thinking that you should send them rosé Champagne because they’re a woman…you are not going to get far if this is the way you are trying to sell wine.
Hamish Greening
How much do your clients spend?
Our average bottle sale price tends to be between £400 and £500 a bottle (nb: in bond, ex VAT and duty)
There are not that many bottles in the world that retail fro £400 in bonds. Does it mean you are selling most of the same wine all the time, or does it mean that you are selling a couple of very expensive ones and then a lot of other cheaper ones?
I think any merchant in that business is typically doing the majority of their sales by value as a company every year with quite a small group of top producers: Domaine de la Rominée Conti, Domaine Leroy, d’Auvenay, Armand Rousseau in Burgundy, and then the First Growths and Petrus in Bordeaux, Screaming Eagle and Harlan from the US, Grange and Henschke from Australia, Conterno from Italy and a few Super Tuscans, and a few Champagne producers. There always going to be such a big part.
A personal belief of mine is that small handful of producers at the top of global fine wine, you have to be incredibly careful when you sell them. They require the most caution because there’s a risk of fakes there. Stakes are extremely high with the value in terms of transport, in terms of condition and storage and provenance. So all of these things make them the most dangerous wines to sell and you should give them the most care and attention. But fundamentally, the wine is selling itself.
One of the fundamental points about this business is anyone can sell you DRC, everyone knows what DRC is in that circle, so you are not left with much convincing to do.
So who do you buy DRC from? And the obvious answer is either the person you trust the most or the person you have the best relationship with and probably both. And so the art for us is about building trust and building relationships and those trusting relationships are normally built on other wines.
Who do you buy DRC from? The obvious answer is either the person you trust the most or the person you have the best relationship with, and probably both. And so the art for us is about building trust and building relationships and those trusting relationships are normally built on other wines.
Hamish Greening
And also helping people progress on their taste journey, I suppose.
Yeah, that’s a really interesting part of it and I think we’ve all witnessed very different journeys from people. And when I talk about the benefits of the bonded system allowing us to buy and sell wine, I don’t just mean it because people are trying to turn a profit, I don’t just mean it because people are treating it as an investment. I think one of the key things about that is it allows people’s tastes to change and their collections to adapt with it.
That’s one of the things that’s so special about the bonded system because not everyone’s tastes are going to follow a uniform path. They might end up wanting to trade collections because they realise they have too much of one thing and not enough of another. And the beauty of the bonded system is their cases are probably stored right next to each other in the same warehouse, and you can arrange for that without any significant costs or any loss of condition.
When I talk about the benefits of the bonded system allowing us to buy and sell wine, I don’t just mean it because people are trying to turn a profit, I don’t just mean it because people are treating it as an investment. I think one of the key things about that is it allows people’s tastes to change and their collections to adapt with it.
Hamish Greening
You were telling me 60% of your consumers are under 40 years of age. How does this younger cohort differ from the rest of your company’s clients?
I think there are many ways they differ. One of the most interesting is probably their social media presence. And I would imagine one of the reasons I’ve developed good relationships with a lot of those clients is that I also try to stay active on social media; wine has a really big place on social media now and some accounts [are] getting tens of thousands of followers and hundreds of thousands of interactions on their content.
And I think I can pretty much predict the requests that I’m going to have, because someone with influence was on Instagram the evening before saying, “This is the single best you can buy”. And the next day, 10 of my younger people will be going, “Have you seen any of this lately?”
Sometimes we underestimate how older generations use social media as well. Do they have a different way to engage with social media?
I think they do. It’s not the suggestion that we have a significantly higher number of people using social media younger. It’s the way they react to it. I think lots of people that I have who are clients who would be above 40 will have social media, of course they’ll post on it, they’ll share their dinners and the interesting wines they’re drinking and they’ll certainly look at other things on it. But I think they trust it far less.
They tend to be more skeptical and a just a bit more classical in what informs their choices. They’ll say, “I’ve read what Neil Martin said this year and that’s what I’m going to buy”. Rather than, “I saw a guy in a snapback cap and a Supreme t-shirt holding a bottle of this. Can you find me some?”
[Older consumers] tend to be more skeptical and just a bit more classical in what informs their choices. They’ll say, “I’ve read what Neil Martin said this year and that’s what I’m going to buy”. Rather than, “I saw a guy in a snapback cap and a Supreme t-shirt holding a bottle of this. Can you find me some?”
Hamish Greening
Can I also ask you the reverse question — in what way are they similar to other demographics?
Some of the more traditional collectors I have, based purely on their cellar, I would believe that when they started buying wine, they bought a good volume of every individual wine they bought.
So if they were buying En Primeur, they might have taken 24 bottles. And that goes for Bordeaux, Burgundy, Italy, Champagne. They tend to buy in volume and in many cases that looks like a really savvy choice now.
Now, I think more and more younger clients are asking difficult questions about smaller formats. Unless they know they adore the wine, they’re like, “Well, why would I take 12 if I could take six?”
But I think we’ve seen it — right down to some much cheaper wines that are retailing at £30, £40 a bottle — where people are saying, “I would much rather buy three of them”. I don’t see the need to own a lot of bottles of wine.
Does the breakout by regions really differ depending on the age category?
No, I don’t think so at all. I think there are a few trends in global fine wine, but those trends are reflected as a symptom of the time, not the age. So currently, for example, there are some regions that we massively struggle with: where people are simply not interested in that style of wines -very high alcohol, very tannic, very extracted red wines. But it’s the same whether you are 70 or 20.
How does a collector differ from a “expensive wine buyer” from your perspective?
A collector is far more obsessive than a buyer and they’re thinking ahead and strategically. Buying is something that they enjoy as a process, not just as an end.
For a wine buyer, I’m a means to an end. All they really want is the wine. And they often don’t know they want it until the last minute, when an occasion comes up that they do need wine, at which point I’m their means to the end. While we’re always happy to help people out where we can, those are not really the best type of clients for us because to source the best wine in the best condition at the best price, it’s unlikely that I can have it to you tomorrow. That’s just the fundamental reality of it.
What’s exciting is the chance to work on building collections over time. And if you’re just a buyer, you don’t have the patience to purchase semi assembled things and wait for them to come to fruition, that’s a zero interest to you. If you’re a collector, you’re going to get an active enjoyment out of watching these things come together.
A collector is far more obsessive than a buyer and they’re thinking ahead and strategically. Buying is something that they enjoy as a process, not just as an end.
Hamish Greening
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And how do you identify future collectors from buyers?
Ask them.
I don’t think there are categories you’re assigned at birth. I think there is an ability for you to morph from a wine buyer into a collector. I’d like to think what I’m doing at the moment is fostering many young wine buyers into collectors by infecting them with the enthusiasm that I have for it. That’s meant to be the point of the company and of what I do.
Normally, when we’re meeting people, we ask them if they want to be involved in our events. I think we put on genuinely fantastic and interesting events that go from quite relaxed gatherings to share our own bottles all the way through to superstar, multi-thousand pound ticketed events to some of the rarest wines in the world. Almost always, when you tell young consumers about these, if they’re going to be a collector, they’re like, “Amazing. When can I come?”
They want to be involved, they want the community, they want to learn, they want to see new things, try new things, meet new people.
Your young consumers, where did they first get exposed to wine?
I think it’s still a safe bet to say family is still the predominant one that we’d see. And it’s interesting because it seems to be the great leveler across gender, socioeconomic background and ethnicity or birthplace or religion or anything. It’s like, well, fundamentally, if you grew up with parents who are into wine, there is a much, much higher chance that you carry that.
And I think one of the interesting things is there is an affinity if your parents collected or had an active interest in it as opposed to just being drinkers.
We discussed it with neuroscientist in past conversations: collectors produce collectors.
Wine has become more fashionable across various walks of life and various backgrounds. Previously it was thought of as being much more upper class and elite, certainly in the UK. But I think nowadays it’s quite trendy. I don’t think drinking wine says anything about your background in the UK anymore, which means people are quite comfortable ordering it. And it means that there are wine tasting clubs, not just at Oxford University.
The younger generation of money that’s come through from tech and associated things don’t dress the way the billionaire all do. They don’t act that way. A lot of my clients, quite regardless of their wealth level, really don’t want to be pigeonholed into a St. James’s members club, old school, Claret drinking style of wine consumer. They’re really delighted to be able to hang out at quite trendy places, drink some interesting things and not be seen in that light.
I’ve said it so many times, stop always going to St. James and Westminster when you do things.
To give you a humorous example, I hosted a dinner two weekends ago, which we hosted at Cornus in Belgravia, near Victoria Station. And that had a fascinating mix of men and women of all ages. And one of my clients who was there, and maybe if he hears this, he’ll forgive me, can certainly afford to drink the greatest wines in the world until the day he dies.
And he texted me on the way saying, “I’m wearing a hoodie, I hope that’s okay”. And yeah, I think the way people dress to those events is quite telling. And the younger crowds quite often come super casually dressed and they don’t like to make a big fuss of it or particularly share their wallets. They’re there to learn about wine.
I’ve learned that even within collectors there are different motivations for buying a collection. Tell us a bit more about this for the younger demographic.
I could probably separate it into a few different styles. Some people simply just want to drink again, that’s the most basic. And there is a certain subset of our collectors who tend to be very organized and efficient. People who recognize that if they’re buying in multiples of sixes, buying in bond, buying on release, or buying at the right time in the market, then they can get themselves a good deal. They try things in restaurants to make sure they enjoy them and then they come back to you. But fundamentally, they just want to drink and they want to be really savvy about the way they do it.
The next one wants a legacy and that’s a really important and attractive one. Anyone who inherited even a few cases of wine is emotionally attached to the idea of it because they know that however many years ago when they were born, their parents said, “Oh, well it’s her birth year, so I’m going to set aside a case of Champagne in that year so she can enjoy it at her wedding”. They are absolutely adamant they have to have the same at the bare minimum for their kids and maybe they’re hoping they’re going to do a bit better than their parents.
There’s another group of people that want to stay one step ahead of the market and part of this is a game to them. Fundamentally, their motivation is also just to drink, but they quite like to drink for free or certainly for a little bit cheaper than everybody else. So a big part of their motivation is they want to make sure they’re getting the absolute best deal.
You’ve said that you had women paying that £3000 a ticket for two launches. I’ve also heard for different wine merchants in the UK that they’ve tried to develop their women wine collector pool, but that women were not that profitable because they were buying less than men. So you would need to bring whatever number of women to make for one man in terms of spending. Is that something that’s fair?
No, I think that’s fundamentally not the way to go about it. Being a larger amount of spend in a company’s revenue on wine is such a big disparity right now that to see that focus shift overnight, setting up a wine company that only catered to women for example, would not be a sensible idea in the current economic climate. But I think the idea that women on an individual basis are going to spend less than men is ridiculous. I think while statistically it may be true, you have complete control over which women you are dealing with and how much they want to spend as part of that relationship. I have several women clients who would far outspend some of the top clients of many people. They are incredibly powerful, incredibly determined to spend money and on an incredible trajectory within their own life.
The idea that women on an individual basis are going to spend less than men is ridiculous. I have several women clients who would far outspend some of the top clients of many people. They are incredibly powerful, incredibly determined to spend money and on an incredible trajectory within their own life.
Hamish Greening
Historically, they’ve been ignored and overlooked by the market, so they don’t feel wanted. The market has never bothered making room for them, never tried to make them feel special and never actively courted them. And they are now left in a situation where they probably aren’t that inspired to go in heavy because they won’t have a great community, they won’t enjoy the events because there’ll be all the people they don’t want to be with.
We always hear that the new generation is all about sustainability and all about the environment. My own experience when it comes to fine wine is that people don’t really care that much about sustainability. What’s your take on that?
I couldn’t agree more. I think we, and I’m guilty of this myself, I think there is a level of luxury purchase where you are so concerned with the money involved in the purchase that the equation of sustainability can separate from it even.
What would be your last advice for anyone in the wine trade who wants to sell to younger consumers in the UK? And let’s start to a lower price point than yours. Maybe something around €30 or £30.
I think some of the world’s greatest wines are available in that price point between £25 and £50. Those consumers want something to drink immediately, and they want to learn. Relying on this idea of just sending them Bordeaux that they won’t be able to drink for 20 years is a real problem. They want to see a lot of diversity, and they live in an era where they have access to all the scores themselves. They can see the entire market spread on Wine Searcher. So you are going to have to be honest and work hard to get the best out of them. They’re not going to initially trust you — you’re going to have to earn it. But fundamentally, I think they just want to be treated as individuals and be given the chance to have fun.
When you’re thinking about what your clients will enjoy, put fun above everything else.
Because after all, if we are not having fun in the wine world, then where?
Additional Resources
- Women’s Wealth Is Soaring and So Is Their Taste for Fine Wine
- It’s Time to Go Where the New Consumers Are Congregating
- NCNN ep 3: Cultivating Togetherness: In Conversation With Honore Comfort
- NCNN ep 2: Lose the Mystery, Keep the Magic: In Conversation with Sir John Hegarty
- NCNN ep 1: The Luxury Strategies: In Conversation With Jean-Noël Kapferer